Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Protestant Rap, Protestant Worship Music II

I ran across more nonsense on YouTube. When I posted my last blog article on bad Sacred Music I had several Protestants try and tell me that it was never used in Church, but that it was just for entertainment. Well here it is being used by two clowns in a Protestant "church". I guess they think it is edifying to have people watch them act like two fools in a "church" with bad music playing. The one below has a guy rapping in a "church" service. I rest my case. Another product of the individualist, secular mentality of Protestantism.

nt.


28 comments:

Alexander Greco said...

Protestants don't have a clue as to what true worship consists of.

BJ Buracker said...

Matt,

I think I agree with your sentiments here, but neither one of these is taking place in a worship service. Hence, again, both are for entertainment purposes. Thus, your title doesn't apply.

Peace,

BJ

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I didn't say before that no Protestants use it in worship. Like I know what the Protestants do in worship! I said I didn't think it was intended for worship. I thought it was probably intended for preaching in an entertainment type context. But now, having listened to a bunch of it since reading your first post, I find that much of this supposedly "Christian" rap actually addresses God as if speaking to him, and you're right, it is disrespectful towards God. Originally when I thought it was just to preach to wannabe thugs to lure them away from smoking dope and all I thought it was permissible and didn't need to be attacked. I defended in the sense of "why attack it when others with whom you are not in fellowship do it" not "man I wan my church to do this." Besides, why shouldn't the Protestants (who aren't saved because their mere sign baptism is no baptism at all) have some religious etertainment to preach a positive message so they don't take their salvation by faith alone and once saved always saved too serious and come rape and kill us all? Isn't it a good thing for them to hear a moral message in their entertainment to keep them in line since all they hear from their pulpits is easy believism? These are the thoughts that were in my that I did not reveal. But now I see it is disrespectful--yet still, to some extent, because it teaches more Christian morality than Prots ever hear from their pastors, I'm still inclined to not attack it too much. But the groups producing it do appear to be Calvinst, and Calvinists are the bane of existence worse than Islamic terrorists, and there ain't nothing more disrespectful to God than Calvinism. Calvinism teaches an evil god who takes away free will, forces people to sin, and then punishes them for it unless they won the eternal lottery, in which cases they can go rape, kill, and steal all they want and still be saved. When I heard some of the songs that taught morality I thought this music would be good for the unsaved Prots, but now since some of the stuff teaches Calvinism it is bad for them. There's a delima here. The fact that Calvinists corner the Christian rap market is a shame in a way, and yet good in a way. You feel me? Bad because Calvinism ain't gonna be any better for the listeners than regular gangsta rap, and perhaps it will be worse for them. Good because it is disrespectful music so its good that nobody else joins in. This is a hard subject because I'm approaching it from the sidelines as a sociologist basically. Maybe you Catholics should make a rap in Latin with Gregorian chant as the background music. Deus Irae being rapped in the foreground and chanted in the background perhaps.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Hey BJ. How do you it wasn't a worship service? Were you there? The second one is plainly taking place in a church with a full congregation. My title does apply. Also it is the Protestants who change the definitions of what is and what is not a "worship service." When you dispose of the Divine Liturgy and replace it with a smorgasbord of what passes for church services then this is what you get. I rest my case.

Alexander Greco said...

Beowulf said: "But the groups producing it do appear to be Calvinst, and Calvinists are the bane of existence worse than Islamic terrorists, and there ain't nothing more disrespectful to God than Calvinism."

Me: Ouch! I don't know if I would have gone that far.

BJ Buracker said...

Matt,

Actually, if you listen to the last one all the way through, the MC says that's a talent show. So, no, your title doesn't apply.

BJ

BJ Buracker said...

Beowolf,

I must respectfully submit that your post if way out of line, without foundation, and certainly offensive. Please retract and apologize.

But now I see it is disrespectful--yet still, to some extent, because it teaches more Christian morality than Prots ever hear from their pastors,

Can you back that up with facts? Are you present to hear all Protestant preachers? This is a baseless accusation.

But the groups producing it do appear to be Calvinst, and Calvinists are the bane of existence worse than Islamic terrorists,

Are you honestly being serious here? We're worse than people who blow up innocent women and children? We're worse than people who fly planes into towers?

That comment is outrageous and inapropriate. I kindly ask for a retraction and apology.

Calvinism teaches an evil god who takes away free will, forces people to sin, and then punishes them for it unless they won the eternal lottery, in which cases they can go rape, kill, and steal all they want and still be saved.

Can you show me where Calvin teaches that? Can you show me where a Calvinist document (e.g. Westminster Confession of Faith; London Confession of 1689; etc.) teaches that?

You're making a lot of baseless, offensive comments. Again, I ask for apologies and retractions.

Matthew, would you tolerate similar comments from Protestants? If not, why do you allow comments like this to stand on your blog?

Peace,

BJ

Anonymous said...

"Are you honestly being serious here? We're worse than people who blow up innocent women and children? We're worse than people who fly planes into towers?"

The Muslims kill people but you destroy their souls with God-hating doctrine that assert God as the author of sin. You assert that God takes away free will, forces people to sin, then punishes them for what he made them do by pulling their puppet strings--and then lets some of the puppets off the hook by a cosmic dice roll. Islam's murdering of bodies just doesn't compare to your twisting of people souls. And what's more, there is more hope for an Islamic nutjob to accept the gospel for a Calvinist because the Calvinists while making God out to be Satan actually thinks he's preaching the gospel already!

"I must respectfully submit that your post if way out of line, without foundation, and certainly offensive. Please retract and apologize."

You'll have to get your false god to take my free will away and make me, devil worshiper.

BJ Buracker said...

Beowulf,

You assert that God takes away free will, forces people to sin, then punishes them for what he made them do by pulling their puppet strings--and then lets some of the puppets off the hook by a cosmic dice roll.

Really? Where have I said that? Where does Calvin said that? Please provide some support for your claims, and apologize for your inaccuracies and insults.

Your accusation here is about as well grounded as the accusation that Catholics believe Mary is God.

Islam's murdering of bodies just doesn't compare to your twisting of people souls.

So Islam doesn't twist people's souls? They teach the truth? They worship Christ and lead people to Him? What are you saying? You don't even make sense.

You'll have to get your false god to take my free will away and make me, devil worshiper.

Excuse me? On what basis do you call me a devil worshiper? Do you just make it a practice to insult people, or do you have something substantial to say? What benefit do you suppose name calling has?

You are out of line and rude! You are making accusations and claims that are not true, and you have provided no support. Please desist, repent, and show integrity, respect, and - dare I say - charity.

BJ

Anonymous said...

Like I said, if you want a recantation just get your idol to take me free will away and force it. Otherwise, what I've typed is eternally secure.

BJ Buracker said...

Beowulf,

So far your posts have been nothing except insulting, ad hominem statements. You have provided no evidence for anything you have said, but have only continued to spiral into personal attacks.

Three times now you have insulted me. I have been called an idolater, devil worshiper, and worse than Islamic terrorists. This is disrespectful, arrogant, out-of-line, and just plain rude. This does not reflect godly love (1 Cor. 13:4-7), the fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), or the attitude demanded of us in apologetics (1 Peter 3:15-16).

That you are unwilling to repent, apologize, and retract your statements is no longer my business; you have been rebuked. This is now between you and God almighty.

Nevertheless, I hope for the sake of your neighbors, colleagues, acquaintances, and even family and friends, that you do not treat those you encounter daily the way you have treated me. Indeed, at this point I have no desire to associate with you or whatever church you happen to represent, simply because you attack, insult, and offend without reserve or apology.

If you wish to discuss theology civilly, charitably, and gracefully, so be it; I am more than inclined to do so.

Until then, I wish the blessings of God upon, including humility, repentance, and eternal life.

God be with you,

BJ

Anonymous said...

Everything I said is true and the true God doesn't rebuke truth. Your malignant god of determinism is imaginary so I don't fear anymore than I fear Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. The one who has something to fear from God on Judgment Day is the Calvinist idolater who has rejected the true God and replaced him with a malignant idol whom they say is the author of sin and who they say does not allow men free will. You have been rebuked, and I know you will not repent because you hate the true God. This is also my last word on this. I don't want to try Matthew's patience. But Calvinists cannot be allowed to claim that they do not teach that their god is author of sin and that he doesn't allow free will. This is exactly what you Calvinists teach, and how dare you lie and claim otherwise.

BJ Buracker said...

Beowulf,

But Calvinists cannot be allowed to claim that they do not teach that their god is author of sin and that he doesn't allow free will. This is exactly what you Calvinists teach, and how dare you lie and claim otherwise.

I will ask again: where does Calvin or any Calvinistic creed, confession, or official document teach that? If you cannot back up your accusations, stop making outrageous claims.

Thanks,

BJ

Anonymous said...

Your only complaint is that I use real language rather than your equivocating terminology. Get over it you lying scum. Every Calvinist creed teaches it and Calvin teaches it everywhere.

BJ Buracker said...

Beowulf,

1. Where did I lie?

2. If there are so many examples of what you claim Calvin said, provide ONE!

Answers to these would be nice. If do not wish to answer, simply be quiet. Your insults, anger, and falsehoods are not appreciated.

BJ

Anonymous said...

I don't know who you think you're fooling, but what Calvinism teaches is common knowledge. Your lies are not going to convince anyone. And even if you did convince someone, they'd learn eventually that you were lying. You can accomplish nothing.

Alexander Greco said...

Hey Beowulf, I know BJ and he is not a liar, a devil, or any one of the other insulting names that you have called him. He is an honorable, decent, and all around good guy.

BJ and I disagree over various issues, and while I disagree with him I would never accuse him of being anything other than an honest and sincere peacful fellow.

As far as I know, Matt does not delete comments. I would ask that you be respectful in your comments. You can disagree and challenge without being insulting. Not only are you being insulting, but I personally find it insulting when you insult my friends, and I consider BJ to be a friend. Challenge him...yes, insult him...no.

BJ Buracker said...

Mr. Greco,


I greatly appreciate your kind words, support, defense, and encouragement. I don't really care whether Matthew deletes the comments or not, so long as he is consistent in his policies, but I am grateful for you coming to my aid. Thank you very much. I hope I have opportunity to return the favor someday.

God bless,

BJ

Anonymous said...

Defend those who blame God for all evil and call him the author of evil if you will, but not a one of them is honorable. Calvinists have no honor--only shame, just like their false god.

Alexander Greco said...

Yet you can convey the same sentiments about Calvinism without the equally distracting incivility. I am not sure how my comments here can be considered unreasonable.

His Handmaid's son said...

Right. So, Beowulf2k8, you've roughly understood a point or two of Calvinist theology and presented it in the most unattractive light possible (if it is false, simply presenting it accurately should do). Then, you've extrapolated from it to assume that all who hold the point, or even maintain membership in groups that used to hold the point, are wicked scoundrels for doing so, as if nobody ever made a mistake in good faith. From this general conclusion, you've then deduced that a particular interlocutor (BJ Buracker) is himself a dishonorable sneak of some sort.

I know him, though, and can assure you that BJ is a very good man, sincere and open, honest and forthright. If he is mistaken, he is honestly mistaken, and wouldn't deliberately persist in error, let alone lead others into it. It is possible you have more truth than he, but then, hadn't you better have more charity then as well?

In his prelude to the discourse on charity, St. Paul writes, "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing," (1 Cor 13:2). What good to you is your knowledge if you are damned for it, because you used it as a club to bash folks with, rather than treating it as water toward which to lead them? In his letter to the Ephesians, St. Paul explains the way to grow into mature Christian life: "...so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles... Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,... from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love," (Eph 4:14-16). Who will it help if we speak truth in anger, self-righteousness, or harshness? Ourselves at judgment day? Those we are trying to convince?

We may from time to time be required to act sternly with those we love, but love is patient and kind, never arrogant or rude (1 Cor 13:4-5). Reality, truth, is hard and unbending; but love and grace are gentle - they make it so that we can embrace truth.

If BJ and his lot are so error-ridden, have you helped him to see that? I don't think so.

Now, Beowulf2k8, you needn't respond to this post, certainly not for my benefit, because I am to busy with work and school even to have written this much prudently. I doubt I will check the post or the blog again. I only write by way of fraternal admonishment, and to defend BJ's honor, and also to let you know that I think Beowulf is a darn good piece of literature too.

If you'd like to meet with me in person to discuss BJ's honor or mine, or to discuss Calvinism or the Catholic religion, you are welcome to. You can email (withouthavingseen@gmail.com) me to make arrangements.

Ryan Haber
Kensington, MD

Matthew Bellisario said...

Wow. I went away for a Thanksgiving vacation and my blog turned into a war zone! Beowulf, please be respectful on this blog. I have never deleted a comment and I don't want to start now. As far as BJ and his beliefs go, and yours as well, I am completely opposed to those which contradict true Christian doctrine (Catholicism). That being said I don't think his intentions are demonic as you have accused him of being. This blog post is on bad music being used in Christian settings, not predestination. Please stick to the topic.

BJ you appear to be right on the last video. My apologies. I still stand by the corruption of sacred music by Protestantism, and I also still question as to what constitutes a "liturgical service" when it comes to Protestantism. There are so many variations of what is practiced on a Sunday morning when it comes to Protestantism, that I find most of these differences in regard to settings negligible in their practices. In other words, I have personally been to Protestant "worship services" where this type of music (rap, rock and roll etc) is used on Sunday morning. You can call the "service" by whatever name you want, but this horrid music is often the center of their morning get together, and these videos depict this type of music. It wont be hard to find a video with music being used in a "worship" service. If I do what difference would it make? Some other excuse would be used to defend it anyway. Thanks for the participation.

BJ Buracker said...

Matt,

Thanks for chiming in between Beowulf and I, I appreciate it.

I also still question as to what constitutes a "liturgical service" when it comes to Protestantism. There are so many variations of what is practiced on a Sunday morning when it comes to Protestantism...

I think you'll be hard pressed to find the word "liturgy" used as a self-description of MOST Protestant worship. For the most part, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Charismatics, etc. Don't use that term at all. In fact, it would probably be seen as a mala palabra, as worship should be "free" and "personal." Lutherans and Anglicans are certainly an exception here, and I am unsure about Methodists. Never been to one of those churches.

In other words, I have personally been to Protestant "worship services" where this type of music (rap, rock and roll etc) is used on Sunday morning.

No doubt that you have, and I would be horrified to attend such a thing. However, similar things have been done in Catholic Liturgies. Wasn't there that dreadful problem of a clown mass? And I've been to a Mass where it felt more "poppy" than majestic because of the music. Such degradation is not a Protestant problem alone.

It wont be hard to find a video with music being used in a "worship" service. If I do what difference would it make? Some other excuse would be used to defend it anyway.

I think your point would be stronger if you were to find such a video.

Nevertheless, you won't hear an excuse from me, anyway, if/when you post one. I think it is despicable how some people have turned the worship of the transcendent, almighty God into a concert or other form of entertainment. I understand that the reason is so that those who do not believe will feel welcomed, at home, and normal. This is noble, but I'd suggest that worship ought to be different from the ordinary and mundane, and perhaps being in the presence of God should be a bit uncomfortable.

---

So bottom line: there is degradation of worship in some Protestant circles, not all, but that does not mean that Catholicism has kept everything in purity. Doctrinal disagreements aside (e.g. prayers to the saints, kneeling before the host, etc.), there are enough examples of poor, irreverent Catholic Masses to justify pointing the finger a bit closer to your home, as well.

Blessings in Christ,

BJ

Matthew Bellisario said...

BJ, the main point I am making is that this type of music and entertainment did not begin in the Catholic Church. It began with the Protestants. And yes, people in the Catholic Church allowed this nonsense to creep into some liturgies. This however is not endorsed, and is in fact been condemned by the Catholic Magisterium. That is the difference here.

BJ Buracker said...

Matthew,

Perhaps I missed it, but where did you talk about the origins of rap music in worship? I didn't read that in either post. All that came across to me was, "Here is another reason not to be Protestant," which is far from you what you're saying was the main point.

Plus, how do you know that this started with Protestants? Do you have anything to support that claim? I'd be interested.

In the first post, you said, "Here is a clear example of what happens when you depart from Sacred Tradition." However, you admit that it does happen within Catholic Churches which have not officially departed from Sacred Tradition, and may, for all I know, hold onto orthodox Catholic doctrine. So how does Tradition hold it altogether anyway?

Thanks,

BJ

Anonymous said...

I have to thank the cowardice of the Roman Catholic Church (past, present, and future) for giving us the putrid doctrine of Calvinism. If the popes had of had the guts to condemn Augustine as a heretic, or if you guys would even stand up today, Calvinism would perhaps have never come into existence or could be taken out. But alas! a church full of brown-nosing cowards who's rather worship idols of Mary and fight over whether she remained a virgin after giving birth to Jesus or not rather than deal with the demonic doctrine of arbitrary predestination. You are disgusting disappointments.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Great post beowulf. Your ignorance is well recognized here. Once again if you don't have any constructive arguments to present then don't comment. I don't have time to police my blogsite for boneheaded posts and delete them.