Saint Thomas Aquinas

Tuesday, March 27, 2012

Fr. Robert Barron on LA Congress "Its the Happening Place"

As some of you may know who stop by here regularly, last year I wrote a piece on Fr. Robert Barron concerning his error on the death penalty. He proclaims himself to be a Thomistic scholar, yet his smorgasbord class of theology does not support his claim. He often prefers crippled minded theologians like Hans Urs von Balthasar over the Angelic Doctor. That being said, I ran across this video of an interview with him from 2011 when he was at the LA Religious Education Congress, which as we all know is a complete disgrace. See these two posts (one and two) for more on that. If you think that the type of behavior is OK, then you can dismiss this post and go on your merry way. For those of you who can see that the Congress is a complete sham and a mockery to the Catholic faith, then this video may interest you. Fr. Barron asks, After being asked "What brings you to this religious congress," he answers, "Well, what would keep you away? This is the place to be. It is maybe my 7th or 8th visit here. And its one of the greatest events in the Catholic year.....Its the happening place." No need for a retort here, the videos of what happens at the event, and his endorsement of it speaks for itself.

24 comments:

Stacy said...

"What would keep you away?" Wow, maybe he honestly doesn't know about the liturgical monstrosities that are carried out there. Maybe he just goes to the conference to market his materials and doesn't stick around for the Mass at the end?
Maybe you could contact WOF ministries with a link to one of those videos and see if he is aware. Fr. Barron has never come off to me as someone who is very critical of modern tendencies (versus populum, ecumenical movement etc.), but the liturgical abuses at this conference are off the deep-end. I would think even the moderate liberals and more liberal neo-conservatives would be made uncomfortable.
To me, the liturgy at the conference looks like the Lion King performers escaped from Disney Land California and took over.

Steve "scotju" Dalton said...

Stacy, your last sentence tickled me. Maybe they ought to have the liturgies at Disneyland! At least, that way, the audience can see some decent entertainment after enduring the liturgy! These pop liturgies are so Mickey Mouse, so why not have the conferance at Disneyland!

Steve "scotju" Dalton said...

What Fr Barron said about the conferance being a "happening place" sounded like 60's hippie talk! I'll bet most of the leaders of this idiocy came to age during that decade. Can you hear the strains of 'Feeling Groovy' echoing in the conferance hall? ROTFL!

Unknown said...

I grew up in the town that Fr. Barron's family is from, and I also went to the same parish as his brother's family while growing up, attending the same school, etc. I know the environment there in SC, and here's what I can tell you:

Catholicism in the diocese of Charleston has taken such a beating--and the Catholic Church there is so small to begin with--that the "conservatives" of that state have practically no idea what an orthodox Catholic life might really look like. It's a problem of having their standards set appallingly low for liturgy, Church architecture, etc. Fr. Barron really does have both his heart and his mind in the right place. The problem is, Catholics there just don't know what they don't know. I only found this out after leaving the state.

Using myself as an example, I grew up under the impression that our liturgy, and our whole approach, were as orthodox and as "traditional" as it was possible to be. I really believed this well into my 20's. However, when I moved away and started attended a REAL traditional parish in Indiana, the level of my disillusionment almost cannot be described in words.

I have always found Fr. Barron's discussion of the issues surprisingly thin and lacking in real theological or substantive heft. Again, his heart is in the right place and he reaches a lot of Catholics, and maybe even a lot of non-Catholics, so I do not condemn him. However, the state of things in the south is very bad, standards have been dropped to a despicable level, and Catholics living in that bubble are often quite unaware of the situation. Whenever I have to endure a liturgy there, the conservatives I know from SC are always pressing me to share with them how "beautiful" and "traditional" the liturgy was--"That's how it's supposed to be done, baby!" is their attitude. I have to restrain myself from telling them how unbelievably pedestrian and even degraded it was, just for charity's sake.

In truth, many of them are made quite uncomfortable by the Extraordinary Form, and most of them prefer not to go to one or even think about it. They are submerged in a sea of Protestantism, and very anti-Liturgical Protestantism at that, and this has isolated them from what is really possible, I think.

Jae said...

So sorry guys but I dont agree with your sweeping condemnation of the whole program. Yes there were liturgical abuses which were probably done unintentionally, meaning the people with authority had mixed 2 celebrations together that shouldn't have been. The Holy Mass and the Festivities.

There is absolutely nothing wrong to express in your own cultural ways toward giving honor and thansgving to God whether it might be your native language of songs, dances and music. In fact Jesus was pleased when this sinful woman put expensive fragrance on His feet and have rebuked His apostles' suggestions of better use for the poor and Temple offering.

The Bible itself is replete with giving God praise and thansgiving with singing and dancing which He was very pleased.

The problem is, mixing the reverence due to the solemnity of the Holy Mass with festivities in His honor.

Jae said...

Just some of the verses in the Bible:

Psalm 149:3, "Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!"

Jeremiah 31:13, "Then shall the young women rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy; I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow."

Psalm 150:1-6, "Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!"

Ecclesiastes 3:4, "A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance"

Psalm 150:4, "Praise Him with tambourine and dance; praise Him with strings and pipe!"

Psalm 30:11, "You have turned for me my mourning into dancing; you have loosed my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness"

Jeremiah 31:4, "Again I will build you, and you shall be built, O virgin Israel! Again you shall adorn yourself with tambourines and shall go forth in the dance of the merrymakers."

1 Samuel 18:6-7, "As they were coming home, when David returned from striking down the Philistine, the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with songs of joy, and with musical instruments. And the women sang to one another as they celebrated, “Saul has struck down his thousands, and David his ten thousands."

Judges 11:34, "Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter came out to meet him with tambourines and with dances. She was his only child; besides her he had neither son nor daughter."

Luke 15:25, "Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing."

Job 38:7, "When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Exodus 15:1-27, "Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the Lord, saying, "I will sing to the Lord, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea. The Lord is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name. "Pharaoh's chariots and his host he cast into the sea, and his chosen officers were sunk in the Red Sea. The floods covered them; they went down into the depths like a stone."

We must not interpret the past Tradition in a rigorous and legalistic way that other RadTrads have mistakenly adopted.

Andrew W said...

Just some of the verses in the Bible:

Psalm 149:3, "Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!"

Jeremiah 31:13, "Then shall the young women rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy; I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow."

...


Jae,

As the Church has defined it (Trent), the Mass is a representation of the singular Sacrifice of our Lord on the cross at Calvary.

I don't recall the Blessed Mother or the Beloved Disciple singing, dancing, and otherwise engaging in merriment at the foot of the cross. The only ones doing anything like that on Calvary were those with the blood of our Lord on their hands; those who saw to it that He be hanging there like a criminal.

How is that behavior befitting the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

The last 50 years has seen the misguided (and sometimes demonic) replacing the sacred with the profane, stripping our liturgical worship of all that was holy and uniquely "Catholic" in identity, giving us vulgar and worldly entertainment in its place, and all done under the guise of a "restoration." No bible passages can justify that.

Demanding that this foolishness (best I can do in charity) must come to an end is not "RadTrad" - it is Catholic.

Jae said...

Andrew, I totally agree with you however the point I'm making was the misguided, wholesome condemnation of the program and that the root of the problem was not the festivities itself which was just to honor and give thanksgiving to God in their own cultural ways but rather the MIXING of it to the reverence due to the Holy Mass.

As I have said before there is nothing wrong and offensive to God about singing, praising and dancing in His honor and thanksgiving, in fact He is pleased with these acts.

The people of authority concerned with this programs should make a clear and distinct separation of the solemnity of the Mass and the festivities in honor of God.

Moreso, these abuses were personal acts of sin by the liberal clergy and not in any way related to the
Teachings of Vatican II and that is the reason why I said the RadTrad thing which they failed to make a distinction.

Jae said...

"The only ones doing anything like that on Calvary were those with the blood of our Lord on their hands; those who saw to it that He be hanging there like a criminal. "

So sorry brother but I think it's pretty misguided and unwarranted of comparing those people with the Blood of the Lord on their hands in crucifixion is not the same type of people in this program. We can honestly assumed that NOBODY in this program has the intention in his heart to profane, mock, ridicule Our Blessed Lord like a criminal hanging on the Cross.

They happened to be in a festival giving praise and honoring God. Most traditional countries celebrate the Feast of Saints with big celebration and banquettes.

Andrew W said...

Jae - My comparison was with comportment and liturgical atmosphere, and specifically of whether that demonstrated in the video, and what these events seek to create, is befitting what is taking place at the altar during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Specifically, I made this exaggerated comparison because we know that it is unlikely that anybody at the LA event had in their hearts that of those who persecuted our Lord - quite the opposite, I am sure. It should call to mind the contradiction between what it is that is taking place at the altar and the atmosphere being created. As is the case with most Catholics at liturgical events where these shenanigans occur - they are misguided into thinking this is fitting for the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a banquette or party, as I am sure you will agree. In order for it to be efficacious for us it must be carried out with the solemnity that the miracle taking place at the altar demands. Otherwise we are entertained, but not properly disposed.

Jae said...

Andrew, as in my previous post I strongly agree with your point here, that is why I said that the people of authority should make a clear distinction of the 2-events taking place at this program, namely the solemn and reverent celebration of the Holy Mass and the festival celebration in honor of God.

However, with their good intentions I would still withhold any judgment and let the higher Church authority and God Almighty do the judging.

Peace in Christ.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Jae, the problem here is that the Church authority, the Archbishop, is the one that is participating in the madness at the Mass, not outside of it. He is the one obstinately participating in Liturgical abuse to its extreme. There is no way that the abuse is done accidentally. This stuff is not rocket science. It does not take a Church authority to state the obvious. Your use of Scripture here is out of context.

Secondly there are many heretical speakers at the conference. This entire congress is an abomination, and until they get rid of the heretics and celebrate the Mass within the proper form allowed by the Church, it is a public scandal, end of story.

Andrew W said...

Jae,

I must have misinterpreted the motivation behind your posting scripture quotes as to be providing justification for this anomalous behavior (with respect to the 2000 years of liturgical patrimony of the Church). If this is not what you intended, mea culpa.

In these difficult times it is understandable that those of us who see the crisis of our times, and realize the contradiction between our time and the balance of the 2000 year history of the Church, will arrive at varying conclusions on when and where it is appropriate to defend the Church, whom we love, and the Truth in Her care.

Jae said...

Matt while I agree with you regarding the proper form the Mass should be said, I don't agree with your assertion that the entire congress is an abomination that is your judgment as with theirs are liable to God Almighty. Like what I said before, the 2 events in this congress namely first, the solemn celebration of the Mass and secondly the festival in honor of God (my Bible citations) are done in good faith and intention, both are pleasing to God, the problem started when the two are mixed together. Whether they were done intentionally or with invinsible ignorance I still give the benefit of the doubt to the Archbishop not outright condemn him.

Andrew, my Biblical quotations still stand with my point intact, that festivals of songs, dances, praises and thansgivings in honor of God is not "an anomalous behavior" but rather pleasing to Him. That was my point, if they are mixed with the celebration of the Holy Mass that is another subject.

Your last paragraph is broad, I don't know if you are just referring to instances of liturgical abuse of some liberal clergy or the ideas justifying the disobedience espoused by SSPX.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Jae, the whole discussion here has been for the most part about the Mass and the speakers at the event. That about covers most of it. As far as a bunch of people jumping around at an event, that has little to do with the intention of the Congress. The intention of the Congress by its own definition is for the education of Catholics. Hence its title, Religious Education Congress. It fails in its intention. While you may think that the jumping around is pleasing to the Lord, teaching heresy and turning the Mass into a Disney parade is clearly not pleasing to Him. Priorities are important. The intention of the Congress is not met and therefore as I said, it is a complete failure. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Jae said...

Matt for a start I admired your apologetics prowess defending the Faith with the likes of John Bugay, Turrentinfan, etc. however, please don't caricature the position which I hold by saying, "While you may think that the jumping around is pleasing to the Lord".

The point is rather simple, as we can see David, Moses, Saints Francis, Nicholas etc., the Psalter were all singing and dancing to the Lord. I don't know if you judge them otherwise.

Primarily we agree about the proper form of the Mass should be said what we don't agree at is the perceived "failure, heretical teachings and abomination" of the entire congress. It is hard for the people specially the liberals to fool and lead faithful catholics astray primarily because of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Matthew Bellisario said...

It has not been hard for the liberals to fool anyone, because we see it all in action here. We worship as we believe, and it aint lookin too pretty. My point again is that the Congress is not successfully achieving what it intended to achieve, that is my point. The rest of it matters little, which is why my "jumping around" depiction was used. We are not discussing Old Testament parallels here. We are discussing the Mass and the education of Catholics here. That was the clear intent of the series of posts on this issue.

Jae said...

I agree with you Matt. It is sad, truly sad on why they invited people who are known dissidents of the Church to speak in the congress. However, I'm still hopeful that the rotten few wont able to hijack the entire mission of the congress, that there are still faithful majority to plant seeds (as a priest from SJ attested that majority are still faithful to the Magisterium and Tradition). I have faith with St. Ignatius who is in Beatific Presence not to allow his society succumb to heretical sect as the same hope that Jesus' great promise to Peter and His Church that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" and guiding her INTO ALL Truth until the end of time.

I will still pray for Archbishop Gomez. Peace.

Jae said...

I agree with you Matt. It is sad, truly sad on why they invited people who are known dissidents of the Church to speak in the congress. However, I'm still hopeful that the rotten few wont able to hijack the entire mission of the congress, that there are still faithful majority to plant seeds (as a priest from SJ attested that majority are still faithful to the Magisterium and Tradition). I have faith with St. Ignatius who is in Beatific Presence not to allow his society succumb to heretical sect as the same hope that Jesus' great promise to Peter and His Church that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" and guiding her INTO ALL Truth until the end of time.

I will still pray for Archbishop Gomez. Peace.

Jae said...

I'm so disappointed at Archbishop Gomez. When he was elevated to head the LA diocese that hope and gladness we have a conservative and orthodox bishop to repel known dissidents and bring back catholic teachers who are faithful to the Magisterium and the Church, but this one is a letdown. I really don't know if he is in the dark or just been newbie that comes with it or invincibly ignorant with the facts of some rebel instructors. God only knows. Still hoping he wakes up.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Well, all we can do is pray, and bring things like this to the attention of faithful Catholics who will speak up about it. Until faithful Catholics start making it known that severe abuse and charlantry like this is not appreciated, it will keep happening. Although we need to be charitable, we also need to be straight to the point in not tolerating this kind of thing.

I will never support an event like that knowing what goes on there. That being said, think of all the good they could do if they had great theologians and speakers at the event, along with a solemn high Mass with Gregorian chant giving glory to God. It could be a great event. That is what Catholics should be demanding from the Archbishop.

Steve "scotju" Dalton said...

Hey, I saw that James Swan took notice of this post. Of course, he gave it his usual nasty twist. Doesn't this poor, lost, nreformed sol have anything better to do? Tsk, tsk!

Matthew Bellisario said...

Mr. Swan just loves to keep making a fool out himself doesn't he? He can't wrap his feeble mind around objective truth and how the human mind comprehends it. Perhaps I should send him a book on logic. Oh wait, that logic book is not an infallible statement by the pope, its worthless! Swan would never read it coming from a Catholic. Maybe if I had a Prot send it to him he would read it. What a pathetic joker he is.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Perhaps Swan should be taking a toke like this guy..

http://catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2012/03/this-is-your-brain-on-protestantism.html