
I wanted to post a summary of what transpired on Beggars All last week regarding the Orthodox as accepting the term transubstantiation and the belief of the substance of the wine and bread being changed in substance, which is what the term means. A person misrepresented the Orthodox teaching on the Eucharist and then posted the exchange between myself and him without posting my last response. Those over at Beggars All deleted my last post and left his up declaring him a winner by default. When you can't post a response I guess that is how you win debates in the Reformed circles. Here was my last post on the debacle. Here once again you can see why I changed my blog around to avoid these clowns. The only reason I am posting it is because they deleted my last post.
So here is a summary of the vast evidence provided against Turretin Fan’s claim that the Orthodox Church does not believe that the wine and bread are changed in substance as the term transubstantiation defines by the Catholic Church.
We Several Orthodox Bishops who signed agreements with the Pope that they agree to all 7 sacraments including the doctrine on the Eucharist being transformed…
"The Spirit transforms the sacred gifts into the body and blood of Christ". (Taken from the JOINT COMMISSION FOR THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE)
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese says, “But whatever were the various forms of the Divine Liturgy of the primitive Church, as well as of the Church of the final formation of the Divine Liturgy, the meaning given to it by both the celebrants and the communicants was one and the same; that is, the belief of the awesomechange of the sacred Species of the Bread and Wine into the precious Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the Lord."
Another example from a Greek Orthodox Parish website..
"In this sacrament, the bread and wine offered to God become the Most Holy Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Christ. This is known as transubstantiation. Both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox recognize each other as "Sister-Apostolic" churches."
Turretin doesn’t like the source because it wasn’t updated since JPII??? What that has to do with anything is anyone’s guess. Just another futile attempt to dodge the fact that he is wrong.
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia said on their website the following..
"While Orthodoxy has always insisted on the reality of the change- the bread and the wine become in very truth the Body and Blood of Christ, it has never however attempted to explain the manner of the change. It is true that sometimes Orthodox theologians will make use of what came out of Latin scholasticism, the term “transubstantiation” (in Greek μετουσίωσης)."
Finally I provided an excellent source that was drawn up by the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem and then signed by 86 Orthodox Bishops including the Russian Orthodox that confirms everything that I have said. But the best Turretin could come up with was that the document was accidentally written, and somehow this teaching slipped in unnoticed because of Latin influence. Yet when we go on the Ethereal Library online it holds this council as being one of the most important ever in modern history of Orthodoxy. It says in reference to the council which Turretin is now trying to claim a mistake.. Synod of Jerusalem and the Confession of Dositheus, A.D. 1672) as follows,…I quote..” It is dated Jerusalem, March 16, 1672, and signed by Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem and Palestine (otherwise little known), and by sixty-eight Eastern bishops and ecclesiastics, including some from Russia. This Synod is the most important in the modern history of the Eastern Church, and may be compared to the Council of Trent.”
These are all creditable sources either from the Archdiocese of the Greek Orthodox Church or one of their parishes, and the last example by Patriarchs and bishops drafting a specific document to attest to their beliefs, specifically in reference to the heresy of Protestantism. There is no possible way that they could have written such an in depth description of Transubstantiation by some freak accident which somehow slipped in. I frankly still can’t believe that someone would try to use such an argument, and think that everyone would buy into it. I guess TF thinks that if he presents a pile of crap to someone, as long as he presents it with a bold face, someone will buy it.
Finally I find it amusing that Turretin will outright reject the Patriarchs and bishops of the Orthodox Church who are charged with defining doctrine in favor of a couple of Orthodox theologians who have no charge and no authority to define anything. In fact all they can do is present their opinions and writings to the bishops to be examined and ultimately accepted or rejected by the bishops. This is never demonstrated and the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox hierarchy agrees with the Catholic Church on the doctrine of the Eucharist. Turretin Fan's ultimate argument rests on the fact that 86 bishops and a Patriarch allowed this doctrine to accidentally slip in? He is going to tell us that over a page of Eucharistic doctrine referring to Transubstantiation accidentally slipped in? If you buy into this then I have some Kansas ocean front property to sell you. Ask any Orthodox priest or bishop if they believe the substance is changed after the consecration they will answer yes. Below is part of the article signed by the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem along with 86 other Orthodox bishops in 1672 and the decree that supposedly, according to Turretin Fan "slipped in."
I quote from Turretin Fan.....This has to be the most amusing argument I have ever seen.
a) "These definitions slipped in accidentally in the first place;"Below is what supposedly slipped in...
Decree 17
We believe the All-holy Mystery of the Sacred Eucharist, which we have enumerated above, fourth in order, to be that which our Lord delivered in the night in which He gave Himself up for the life of the world. For taking bread, and blessing, He gave to His Holy Disciples and Apostles, saying: “Take, eat; This is My Body.” {Matthew 26:26} And taking the chalice, and giving thanks, He said: “Drink you all of It; This is My Blood, which for you is being poured out, for the remission of sins.” {Matthew 26:28} In the celebration of this we believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be present. He is not present typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, nor by a bare presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, or by impanation, so that the Divinity of the Word is united to the set forth bread of the Eucharist hypostatically, as the followers of Luther most ignorantly and wretchedly suppose.
But [he is present] truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body Itself of the Lord, Which was born in Bethlehem of the ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose again, was received up, sits at the right hand of the God and Father, and is to come again in the clouds of Heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the true Blood Itself of the Lord, Which as He hung upon the Cross, was poured out for the life of the world. {John 6:51}
Further [we believe] that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, there
no longer remains the substance of the bread and of the wine, but the Body Itself and the Blood of the Lord, under the species and form of bread and wine; that is to say, under the accidents of the bread."