Saint Thomas Aquinas

Thursday, October 9, 2008

James White Responds, Doesn't Quote My Full Post



OK, just a little fun before I get into my post. Doesn't James White look a little like Cyrus the Virus from the movie Conair? Just a little chuckle here, nothing more. White's picture is on his AOMIN.org website under the webcast tab.

Now let's get into the issue at hand. I posted a blog article a few days ago in regards to Dr. White's conversion story he posted on his blog site of a Catholic who was amazingly converted by Dr. White's poor arguments. I posted this because Dr. White is constantly criticizing Catholic conversion stories. He is having some ridiculous 25 year anniversary where he is posting emails etc to show how great he is. Dr. White posted this blog article against me while he was attacking Art Sippo the other day and lumped me in with him. What I found so funny is that Dr, White selectively cut and pasted only a portion of my post and left out the part where I quoted his words in regards to posts like the one he posted. He then conveniently dodged the issue by saying I was taking him out of context. I guess since it is his 25 year anniversary that is a good enough excuse for him to set up a double standard. How convenient indeed! Below is his post....The link is here to his full article titled "a quick look across the Tiber"..

He posted...My responses in all caps for easy reading..

Meanwhile, Sippo is not the only one making quite the spectacle out of himself over on the far side of the Tiber. TurretinFan pointed me to the outrageous comments(OUTRAGEOUS?, MAYBE YOU COULD BE HONEST FOR A CHANGE AND POST MY FULL WRITING WHICH INCLUDES QUOTES FROM YOU!) of "The Catholic Champion," Matthew Bellisario, this morning as well. As most of you know, this month is the 25th anniversary of the founding of Alpha and Omega Ministries. (A GREAT EXCUSE TO GLORIFY YOURSELF AND POST UP CATHOLIC CONVERSION STORIES WHICH ARE OF THE TYPE YOU DESPISE) We set up an e-mail address (testimonies@aomin.org) so that those who have been blessed by this ministry could share how the Lord has used our little ministry in their lives. I have been posting some (SOME? HOW MANY IS ENOUGH TO STROKE YOUR INFLATED EGO?) of them, and have a lot more to go, to be sure. They are very encouraging (ENCOURAGING? PLEASE!), and folks have enjoyed reading about others who have had similar experiences to their own. Of course, I have never presented these as apologetic arguments. (UHMM ITS AN APOLOGETICS BLOG! HELLO!!!!) They are simply testimonials related to celebrating a quarter century of God's goodness to us in this ministry. (HIS ARE SIMPLE "TESTIMONIES", WHILE THOSE OF ROME ARE NOT. HOW CONVENIENT!)


Well, I shouldn't be surprised that a guy who would write about my hats (YES SOMEONE WHO IS SO FAR OFF HIS ROCKER THAT HE HAS LIKE 15 DIFFERENT HATS AND COLORS WHICH HE CHANGES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SAME VIDEO SOMETIMES!) (here) would write this. Let's ignore the context, (THE CONTEXT IS YOU ARE AN APOLOGIST FOR YOUR "REFORMED" POSITION AND YOU ARE USING THIS IN YOUR APOLOGETICS MINISTRY, THAT IS THE CONTEXT DR WHITE. BUT IF A CATHOLIC DOES IT, WELL THATS OFF LIMITS)let's ignore the reality that these testimonials are not only wide-ranging (SO WHAT? YOU SAID THE FOLLOWING IN REGARDS TO CONVERSION STORIES. IN THE TEXT I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE CATHOLIC OR NOT! YOU SAID AND I QUOTE!!!!.."Within Reformed circles, there is not a tendency to write about how one became a Calvinist....") but are not presented as apologetic arguments, and let's create a simply inane basis for an accusation of hypocrisy. Evidently, wild-eyed fanaticism is not limited to Islamic responses that ignore context, either. (WHO IS THE WILD EYED FANATIC HERE? ONE WHO IS SO BIASED TO ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF HIS "REFORMED" WORLD, OR MYSELF WHO HAS MERELY PRESENTED AN OBVIOUS OBSERVATION? YOU CAN'T STAND CONVERSION STORIES DR WHITE YOU SAID IT YOURSELF. YET WE HAVE SEEN SEVERAL OF THEM POSTED ON YOUR WEBSITE. I GUESS IF YOU RE-TITLE IT TO A "TESTIMONIAL" THEN ITS OK. HERE IS SOME ADVISE FOR PATRICK MADRID, STEVE RAY AND THE LIKE. MAKE SURE YOU TITLE ALL OF YOUR CONVERSION STORIES AS TESTIMONIALS! THEN DR WHITE CAN'T ATTACK YOUR CATHOLIC CONVERSION STORIES. MAYBE PATRICK CAN RE-TITLE HIS BOOK SUPRISED BY TRUTH, SURPRISED BY TESTIMONIALS!) Here are Matthew's words:

NO DR. WHITE THESE ARE ONLY PORTION OF MY WORDS. READ BELOW TO SEE MY FULL POST!!!


EDITED POST FROM DR WHITE BELOW

I recall reading many times on Mr White's blog how he just could not stand all of these Catholic conversion stories. Now, on his blog his latest entry is a Catholic who converted to the "Reformed" church because of Dr. White. You see, this "Dr White" is two-faced when it comes to these types of things. It's not OK for a Catholic to post a conversion story, but it is quite OK for him to do so, blowing his own horn so he can show just how great he is. The latest entries on his blog have been littered with people hailing him and his ministry as if he were some sort of prophet. And of course he just cannot resist posting these letters or emails. He also thought it was so great to have professional photos of himself posted on his blog as well. Talk about pride and arrogance. No one Catholic is permitted to post a conversion, but for White it's OK. Well, I will call this for what it is. Two-faced arrogant pride.


FULL POST

I recall reading many times on Mr White's blog how he just could not stand all of these Catholic conversion stories. Now, on his blog his latest entry is a Catholic who converted to the "Reformed" church because of Dr. White. You see, this "Dr White" is two-faced when it comes to these types of things. It's not OK for a Catholic to post a conversion story, but it is quite OK for him to do so, blowing his own horn so he can show just how great he is. The latest entries on his blog have been littered with people hailing him and his ministry as if he were some sort of prophet. And of course he just cannot resist posting these letters or emails. He also thought it was so great to have professional photos of himself posted on his blog as well. Talk about pride and arrogance. No one Catholic is permitted to post a conversion, but for White it's OK. Well, I will call this for what it is. Two-faced arrogant pride. Just so that you do not think I am exaggerating, here is what Mr White wrote in one of his blogs:

"Within Reformed circles, there is not a tendency to write about how one became a Calvinist.......Rather, when one explains the basics of Reformed theology, Bibles are open and pages are flipping. What happened to me really doesn’t matter. Rather, It’s about 'what are you going to do with the clear teachings of Scripture?'"

Need I say more? This guy loves to have it his way no matter what he says about Catholics. Does anyone remember the Martin Luther farce he made a video of a few months back?

28 comments:

horao said...

"WHO IS THE WILD EYED FANATIC HERE?"

Ironic, no?

Matthew Bellisario said...

How can one say that this is not an apologetics tool when it is obviously being posted on his apologetics blog site to show how effective he has been in his apologetics ministry? If you can honestly show that this has no connection to Dr. White's apologetics ministry, then I will apologize. Until then, it appears to me that he is using these "testimonials" to bolster his effectiveness as a Calvinist apologist. Thanks for the comments. If you can show me how I have gone over the line, then i will gladly apologize to Dr. White. Even my fellow Catholics are welcome to criticize my position. Thanks again.

Robert said...

Matthew,
I'm one who commented at the address that Dr. White provided though mine didn't get posted...no sweat there, but I thought it would be interesting to let you in on considering the content of your rant against Dr. White...wanna know what I said?

I said that the one thing that Dr. White has shown me from listening to his shows, reading his literature is his ability to be fair and balanced about what the "other side" presents. To be honest enough to respond to the actual question at hand instead of using personal attacks and doing a "red herring" move.

I think that you have just illustrated what sets Dr. White apart from the "wild eyed fanatics" of the world better than a 1000 word essay could have done.

Nice.

Matthew Bellisario said...

OK Robert, so none of the posts he has posted has anything to do with his apologetics ministry? If that is your position then I do not understand the purpose of his ministry. Dr. White is a Reformed apologist. His blog is obviously engaging in the promotion of his ministry. How can you separate these "testimonial" stories from the construct of his ministry as an apologist?

Robert said...

Matthew,
Again...you missed the point of Dr. Whites posts, and my comment.

I don't know whether you are doing this on purpose or you really don't read very closely...

In any case, Dr. White has clearly stated his position on the "celebrity conversions" he as stated why he prints the thank you's from his listeners, and he has pointed out how you've (either intentionally or unintentionally) misrepresented him.

There is not much else to say but try and go back, read more carefully...possibly call Dr. White directly on his live call in show. If you're really sincerly looking to clear this up and find out WHY he's doing certain things...wouldn't the Christian thing to do would be to just ASK him?

have a good day...

Matthew Bellisario said...

I also would like to point out how his fans are perceiving this "testimonial" 25th anniversary event. Obviously I cannot paste all of the posts here in their entirety. I will pull out selections from different "testimonials" and we can see if they are oriented towards Dr. White's apologetics ministry. If they contain material about his apologetics debates , books, etc, then my position is justified in that they are being used to bolster his apologetics positions and creditability as an apologist. this would be no different than what Patrick Madrid or any of the other Catholics have been doing. So here are some quotes that I have found going through them. Once again I had to edit for the sake of space...

HTI posted, "I cannot express enough my gratitude to God for establishing this ministry and leading me to it. This ministry has done so much to help me understand my own faith better. I deeply appreciate the debates, the books, and the teaching of this ministry......By watching the debates, I have been able to better understand what it is that I believe as a Christian. In the process of combating the many false religions/doctrines James White has presented the clear and historic Christian faith. I have a much clearer and better understanding of the Trinity, TULIP, how my Bible came to me as I have it, and the many other topics that Dr. White has debated."

JF posted, "I was fascinated with your responses, and your clear presentation of the transmission of the New Testament. After that day, I have been a regular visitor to your website to not only read and hear about "KJV-Onlyism", but also Roman Catholocism, Islam, and your defense of Calvinism. AOMIN.org has been a starting point to much of my research on said issues. I also direct people all the time to check your website when they want information about certain Christian issues."

MM posted, "Over the last couple of years, I've developed a large collection of the debates Dr. White has done on dvd. I've had Apologetics and Theology nights at my home, and had people over to watch them and eat pizza. These debates have been a blessing to those people as well.
I continue to be blessed by the ministry of A & O Ministries, as I listen to the pod casts of the Dividing Line, listen to old and new debates, listen to lectures and research the site. "

Mike from NY posted, "I had no bridges to burn because my Roman Catholic upbringing was cultural and not theological. I recall in ignorance telling my unsaved Father to "go back to church...any church." And then came the Great Debate--I sat in complete disbelief--did Rome actually believe and teach these things?! Poor Gerry...forgot his notes and everything.
It was there that I got the bug in my ear to be an apologetic Christian--and I never looked back. During the next few years I had been turned on to the Doctrines of Grace (partly due to the Mass debate in which I was told by your opponent that if I weren't a Calvinist, you were against me too, or something to that effect.) So, I read Drawn by the Father among other works and I was convinced that these doctrines were true and necessary.
Since that time, I've listened regularly to the Dividing Line and I've even called in a few times"

And last but not least the Catholic who abandoned the Church because of White and his "ministry".

"James -- As a cradle Catholic and pretty much a life-long Catholic (who seriously considered studying for the priesthood at one point), and even a veteran of several years' worth of Opus Dei "evenings of recollection," I cannot thank you enough for your ministry. I was one of those who was a happy Catholic, and overjoyed with the publication of ECT. That is, until I started looking at the issues. And just about that time, the Internet started coming on line, and I was able to look at both sides of that issue with clarity, thanks to your efforts. I mentioned your name specifically as an influence, when I sent "Father Dan" my resignation letter from our parish. (That was no small decision on my part -- I was the guy with five kids who frequently sat up front, holding two little ones in my arms, who frequently had to exit, red-faced, carrying a crying baby).

I am a long time web fan of yours and I have read a number of your books. Particularly helpful to me were "The God Who Justifies," "The Potter's Freedom," and of course, "The Roman Catholic Controversy."

As well, I can second the letter that you posted earlier, in that "I have actually learned how to think logically and biblically by reading your correspondence with others. I find the manner in which you communicate with those whom you disagree as graceful yet bluntly honest. I notice the great dishonesty and flat out bad argumentation of those who try to debunk you (really debunk actual Scripture or historical accuracy). Your direct refutations with fact and documentation are wonderful. Stick to the honest facts, and truth will prevail. I have learned what honest argumentation is in contrast to the flawed and egregious."

Plus I have come into contact with some great people (in real life!) through your ministry.

Many thanks for all that you do. I hope you continue to do what you do for a long, long time.

-JB"

So, I guess these testimonials have nothing to do with apologetics or James White and his apologetics ministry. None of these" testimonials" or conversion stories have anything to do with apologetics or to better bolster White and his ministry? Come now, lets be real.

Robert said...

Matthew,
Again...you didn't listen, you just want to further your agenda...

If you SINCERELY want to know WHY Dr. White is doing what he's doing...then call...

If not...keep posting your ill researched overblown rhetoric here...

I'm gone...

bob

Matthew Bellisario said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matthew Bellisario said...

We know why Dr White has an apologetics blog. this is no secret. It is to convert people to his "Reformed" position. The same reason I have a website. I however don't care what tools one uses to get the message across. Dr. White just cannot stand someone who converts to the true Church. He has said, ""Within Reformed circles, there is not a tendency to write about how one became a Calvinist...."

He just posted a whole line of "testimonials" to his apologetics ministry. I don't need to ask him why he is posting these. It is obvious; so people can read them. Its the same reason anyone publishes or posts a "testimonial" or conversion story. It is to influence people. I don't really care that he is dong it. It is an effective tool for apologetics. Just don't use a double standard is all I ask. Don't attack Patrick Madrid, Steve Ray and the many other Catholics who use these tools in their apologetics tool bag, then turn around and use the same tool renaming it something else. No there are no "big names" in these "testimonials". But the intention of supporting his apologetics ministry is the same.

Alexander Greco said...

I believe that the prevailing point is this:

James White posts these comments as a means of celebrating A&O's (and White's in particular) success in the spreading of the Gospel (as they would falsely interpret it) in the lives of its readership. Bragging about one's success is a form of promoting their ministry. Mr. White's ministry is pseudo, or rather anti-christian apologetics. By posting the testimonials he is trying to draw attention to the fruits of his ministry.

Does this substantively differ from a Catholic conversion story as Mr. Bellisario denies?

The Catholic conversion story mainly focuses on the point that a person was saved from error and brought into the fold. Often times they point out the help they received along the way.

The A&O testimonials focus on how White aided the conversion.

Yet is there a substantive difference?

The Catholic conversion story is equivalent to the joy and celebration that the woman who lost one coin out of a hundred felt when she found that missing coin. The A&O testimonials are equivalent to the self-aggrandizing promotionalism found in commercials for Tempur-Pedic mattress. One focuses on the end, the other on the means.

Does White use those testimonials as a tool to help aid in the conversion of others to his pseudo-christianinty? Remotely, yes indeed, and you would have to be quite naiveté to believe otherwise (understood Robert?).

The facts are overwhelmingly obvious; White uses testimonials as a tool in his apologetic arsenal.

It just so happens that White is simultaneously stroking his own ego, which fits his personality quite well. He is an egoist, who displays an odd psychosis-like compulsion for hats, Lava lamps, and self.

Dave said...

That's White for you full of contradictions and hypocrisy...He moans about people like Ray and Madrid deleting comments on their web pages and then when he does the same on his You Tube pages, he uses some lame excuse to justify it...The thing with White is that he cant stand criticism and cant handle not having the last word and always being right..Btw, what does ringing the dividing line prove,as White and his minions of puppy dog fans keep asserting? Some people aren't very good at making their point live on air; I am one of them..That's why White only engages with people on the dividing line, because he plays to his strengths. Yet he never engages anyone in written debates; why? Because White simply wouldn't win, as has been proved my numerous people who have engaged with him over the internet and shown his gospel to be a false one...No wonder the hypocrite doesn't allow comments on his web page.

Robert said...

Yeah...that's it...he's afraid of a debate with you Dave...uh huh...you'd crush this Greek/Hebrew professor, multiple-book-writing author, and radio host with your razor sharp analysis...

I guess Matthew is not that good at dialing the phone and going right to the source either...he; like you...hide behind the internet "combox" instead of going to the source.

Nice.

I broke my word...I said that I was outta hear a comment or two ago but I got an email notification and both of your comments were so weak that I had to say something.

Man-up...go to the source.

Alexander Greco said...

I've been to the source Robert, and the source doesn't seem to want to "give a defense." Maybe you can go and plead to your guide in my place?

Matthew Bellisario said...

Hey Robert. Ive made my response in public to White 4 times now on my videos. Who is the coward who is afraid to respond? Not I. I have made my argument and they are there for anyone on the net to see. James White doesn't have an argument. I already said I would debate him by video responses any time. I refuted his poor arguments regarding tabernacles, the Eucharist and liturgical practices that he was completely ignorant of. I don't care how many books he has written or how many radio shows he has done. He is not well versed in the history of Christianity.

Alexander Greco said...

Robert, Richard Dawkins has written several books in which he comments on religion in general and Christianity in particular. Do you find him to be a reliable source? My wife's director of Religious Studies, James Tabor, archeologist and author wrote "The Jesus Dynasty." I guess she should have considered him to be an expert as well.

Besides, I have no idea when the DL is even on.

Alexander Greco said...

If White isn't careful, the above picture might be a prophetical image of White being escorted from the Judgment Seat of Christ by Satan to his eternal abode.





Then again, that could be any one of us if we reject Him.

Robert said...

Alex, Matthew et al,
Does anyone want the phone number to the Dividing line broadcast or can you get it yourself?

All else is just talk...and talk is cheap.

Alexander Greco said...

If I think about it, and if I decide to take the time out of my day to look for his number and the time to call his program, I will call him.

Robert said...

Alex,
that's a lotta "IF's" in one sentence but I guess it's better than a flat-out refusal... :)

Most Tuesday Mornings at 11:00am MST and Most Thursday Afternoons at 4:00 MST (pre-feed begins 30 minutes or so before start of program).

Dr. White welcomes your calls during the "Dividing Line" broadcast at:
(602) 973-4602 (Metro Phoenix)
1-877-753-3341 (Toll Free)

Frank Luciani said...

We have all seen this guy White's heinous antics too many times before. This guy is a first rate clown. No need to even bother with this charlatan. Keep up the good work.

Frankie...

Frank Luciani said...

Alexander is right. That photo may be prophetic. White being escorted down the hatch by Satan's minions, the demons. Hopefully this guy will repent before that picture becomes a gross reality.

Frankie

Robert said...

Frankie,
Instead of mouthing off like a coward behind a "combox" why don't you call Dr. White and show him the size of your gigantic intellect? I'm sure that he'd really "get a schooling" from you...
Here is the info, I'll be listening...

Most Tuesday Mornings at 11:00am MST and Most Thursday Afternoons at 4:00 MST (pre-feed begins 30 minutes or so before start of program).

Dr. White welcomes your calls during the "Dividing Line" broadcast at:
(602) 973-4602 (Metro Phoenix)
1-877-753-3341 (Toll Free)


Or is it the same in your case too..talk being cheap and manning-up the tough part?

Frank Luciani said...

Hey Robert, when I want your opinion I'll squeeze the puss out of your head. I've been dealing with jerks like you and White for a long time. Screw you and his radio show. Why don't you grow some balls and let James White get his hand out of your ass for a change. There is more to life than being James White's ass puppet. Yours truly, Frank.

Alexander Greco said...

Hey Frank, I'm not a registered member of White&co., but you should try to tone it down a little. I know Matt and I know that he doesn't believe in censorship, but try to keep it relatively civil.

I still appreciate your zeal.

Matthew Bellisario said...

Hey Frank. As you know I am not a fan of James White. I know by looking at your blog that you are not worried about being PC. I would however like to keep a brawl from getting started here on this blog. I don't mind some animated speech but I would appreciate it if you didn't get so violent there on your comments. Thanks for your support.

Matthew Bellisario said...

After some thinking.... It took me a second to digest your post Frank. You managed to pack quite a bit into those few lines. I wanted to point out that if you want to engage in this sort of dialog, you can take it on to your blog. I don't need two guys engaging in a full on war here. I want to focus more on apologetics or even some lighthearted humor at times. You seem to get a bit vulgar judging by your blog and your latest comment. If you can tone your comments down a bit I don't mind you putting in your 2 cents. I will leave your post up, since I don't usually remove posts no matter what they say. I am sure there could be an exception, but don't make me remove yours. Thanks again Frank.

Robert said...

Frank,
You epitomize Christian behavior, nicely done.

But alas...talk here on the combox is cheap.

I suggest you call that "puppet" up and show him what an amazing intellect you have...that would shut my mouth wouldn't it?

Ad hominem attack - when you have no real defense for your beliefs.

Frank Luciani said...

Its me Frank. I will try and remain more calm here in my posts. Robert here apparently has no reading comprehension though. That may explain why he buys into this James White character and is cheap used car mentality. He obviously didn't comprehend that he was the puppet, and not White, since White's hand is up his ass, not the other way around. That would make Robert the puppet, and White the ventriloquist. I am just saying...I will take my more heated comments to my blog Matthew.

Thanks..Just Frank.